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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2011 :  20:01:01  Show Profile
Nigel
I don't think that impugning a serving APC councillors impartiality validates your own opinion on the topic under discussion & one could point to the fact that your own long service on APC never resulted in any real solution to this problem.
You quote that "it is proven that large estates breed vandalism & antisocial behaviour" but I would guess that such research if it exists related to social housing.
Furthermore the quip "it seems your estate gets its share" fails to take into account that on closer scrutiny the problems are brought to the area by outsiders rather than residents.
I am sure that most,if not all BG residents want both to protect their property investments & live a peaceful existence in the area but episodes such as this jeopardise both of those aspirations.
Since additional housing is likely to be forced on us at some point in the future then earmarking an area which is problematic such as Mayflower Park rather than continually having to deal with unwanted travellers seems a reasonable suggestion.
You mislead by saying that "Mayflower park is the only piece of open land that this village owns...so.. it stays open land for the benefit of all villagers." What about Fletchers Field ,which although not owned by the village is for village use & before Mayflower Park was developed was the primary village field along with the land surrounding ASRO in your own locality?
The fact is that apart from the original BG development there has been further infill of smaller developments in the area enlarging the estate & I don't recall APC objecting to the original or subsequent development although they have been happy to spend the S106 funds on their pet projects.
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Paul
Advanced Member

319 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2011 :  21:22:04  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by BRAM

Perhaps then the travellers would invade Fletchers Field & share the misery equally around Angmering, but I suspect that immediate action would be taken to remove them.



I believe Fletcher's Field is managed by St Margaret's Churchwardens on behalf of the residents of Angmering. If it were to be invaded, perhaps they would be well-placed to call for Divine Intervention.

On a more serious note, if a decision was taken to allow the travellers access to "private" land rather than obstruct the public highway, then that person should be presented with the reasonable costs of the results of their decision, as they should have been mindful of the repercussions when making that decision.
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member

United Kingdom
88 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2011 :  07:26:40  Show Profile
Grow up Nigel! my comment about concreting over the park, building houses etc was a facetious remark! Although maybe not...

However, your comment "Mayflower Park is the only large piece of open land that this village owns so it is my opinion that it stays as open land for the benefit of all villagers, not just the ones who can afford a new house"... ummmm benefit for all villagers? don't make me laugh, the only benefit villagers are getting is the opportunity to contribute more in local taxes to clear the mess up when the travellers have finally deigned to leave this year. Of course, they will be back next year as it would appear the local authorities are more than happy to have them on Mayflower Park rather than another site.

My views are my own, admittedly shared by some, not by all. That is called democracy. My husband has his own views and his opinions etc on the matter or any other council issue are not discussed with me. If you are so interested in what will be discussed at the various committee meetings, why not go along and join in. That is also called democracy
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Nigel
Senior Member

United Kingdom
238 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2011 :  17:51:43  Show Profile


MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE LEISURE COMMITTEE MEETING HELD IN THE PARISH
COUNCIL OFFICE ON TUESDAY, 27TH
JULY 2011


Present: Councillor Susan Francis
Councillor Phil Leverick
Councillor Pat Turner
Councillor Sylvia Verrinder (Chairman)


In attendance: Sue Wicks – Senior Assistant Clerk
Mr Nigel Nunn


I will go along and join in ....again.
Just because I am no longer a councillor does not mean that my love and concerns for Angmering are diminished.
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Crazypaving
Average Member

United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  09:44:41  Show Profile
Good on you Nigel! Will be good to have a member of the public taking an interest in our affairs and hopefully reporting back especially as the APC seem particularly quiet and hope that either we will go away or the travellers will - my guess is that it will be us first!

I hear that 3 more caravans turned up night before last, that must make about 25 now. Presumably more will turn up this weekend. Hope there is room in the park for them all. At least they have electricity overnight as they are tapping into the electricity supply used for the skate bowl floodlights. Can that not be cut off as the kids can't use the bowl now anyway? Think the APC should tear down the totally inadequate fencing surrounding the WSCC land by Ang. school, build bunds everywhere with access barriers like that which is by Mayflower Way (although admittedly it would work better if it was down and locked! and then see if the travellers can get in? The lawnmowers come down the footpath so that does not inconvenience them. If WSCC doesn't like it, tough! It is their fault along with the helpful attitude of the police that let the travellers into the site in the first place.
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  10:59:15  Show Profile
quote]Originally posted by Crazypaving
...... At least they have electricity overnight as they are tapping into the electricity supply used for the skate bowl floodlights. Can that not be cut off as the kids can't use the bowl now anyway?
............[/quote][/i]

If this is correct is it not Theft & shouldn't APC demand that Sussex police act immediately?
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Karl@KCM
Senior Member

United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  11:18:34  Show Profile
can anyone not demand?

I'm not sticking up for the APC, but surely with people power and such, anyone can point this out to the police?
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  11:47:16  Show Profile
Karl@KCM

Since the electricity supply is presumably in the name of APC (although paid for by Angmering taxpayers) then the theft is deemed to be from them & the police would be unlikely to accept a complaint from a member of the public.Not that they are likely to do anything even if the cable led them to the thiefs caravan.
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Karl@KCM
Senior Member

United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  11:52:21  Show Profile
surely by someone outside the APC reporting it though, it provides extra 'witnesses' for the police to do something about it?
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patty
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
738 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  20:46:58  Show Profile
Its all gone very quiet.

Is everyone aware that the travellers moved out this afternoon?


any comments and views listed above are those of myself personally and not as a Parish Councillor, and in no way reflect opinions of the Parish Council or any other professional bodies
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Bert
Advanced Member

484 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  20:54:46  Show Profile
Well done Patty.
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patty
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
738 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2011 :  21:00:06  Show Profile
Thanks Bert, but I really cant take any credit for this.
It would appear to have been the court order that our Clerk took out last week that gave them the nudge to go.

Huh, now I can't moan about repaying the £180 he had to pay from his own money to get the court order.

any comments and views listed above are those of myself personally and not as a Parish Councillor, and in no way reflect opinions of the Parish Council or any other professional bodies
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Crazypaving
Average Member

United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  07:31:00  Show Profile
It's all a bit spooky though! The Travellers have upped sticks and gone where?... Are they coming back? Ummm... all sounds too good to be true. Can't help feeling there is mischief afoot. Why would they go without the Court order being issued and then given notice?
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Bert
Advanced Member

484 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  09:14:08  Show Profile
Crazypaving, don't quite get the gist of your comment.

It appears to me, that a County Court Order was obtained last week, for them to move out, by a day during this week, perhaps today (Wednesday) and they moved the day before the bailiffs come along to enforce the Order, which as I understand it, is what they usually do.
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popcorn
Average Member

United Kingdom
40 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  09:56:36  Show Profile
They left a caravan which has been vandalised, surprised it hasn't been set light to!
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  11:55:42  Show Profile
Before the authorities sit back & congratulate themselves can something now be done immediately to ensure that they cannot gain access again.
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popcorn
Average Member

United Kingdom
40 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  15:18:03  Show Profile
well, well, well, what a surpirse the caravan has just been set alight, black smoke everywhere
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beernard
Average Member

United Kingdom
99 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  20:55:06  Show Profile
I passed a convoy of what looked like travellers heading towards worthing on the A27 at around 4pm yesterday. Around 15 caravans

BB
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BFA
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
410 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2011 :  22:49:18  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by BRAM

........... can something now be done immediately to ensure that they cannot gain access again.



I wonder what that something could be, the grass has to be mowed and not with a flymo but a sit-on mower - OK it can gain access down the footpath, it's a small vehicle, but access is required for larger maintenance vehicles, plus events vehicles too, so there has to be a gate or gates of some description and even if they were Fort Knox type gates that were bolt cropper and chainsaw proof, what are they set in to - a fence?

There's not much point in making necessary access points bullet proof unless the whole perimeter is at least as - or maybe there could be a dyke, a huge bund or both around the perimeter between the access points, but the mower couldn't cope with either so it would be a trough filled with and/or a mound covered in - weeds ... unless maintained manually - which would cost.

Or maybe the trough could be filled with water - a moat, or the bund could be tree planted, or maybe a nice big thick ring of hawthorn would be good?

Whatever the solution is it's not going to be 'immediate' and making the area as it is inaccessible by force is probably impossible, so maybe building is the answer - doesn't have to be houses though and still won't be immediate.

We're going to see more travellers here for some time to come I think, but I have to say that more than 90% of Angmering won't know and never have known about them, and that's probably where the police etc are coming from, which doesn't help the remaining 10% or less of course.




















Edited by - BFA on 10 Aug 2011 23:00:09
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  12:10:29  Show Profile
BFA

So APC & WSCC sit on their backsides & do nothing because, as you say, the travellers do not bother 90% of Angmering residents - apart of course for the extra council tax required to deal with the consequences every time they invade.
Since the APC councillors who have been in post for several years have failed to deal with the problem I do not expect any new ideas from them this late in the day but perhaps newer members may have some better perspective or, here's an innovative thought, try asking security experts. APC have consulted with other experts on various matters so why not this?
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Nigel
Senior Member

United Kingdom
238 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  13:55:07  Show Profile
Noticed this in the minutes of the latest APC Environment Committee meeting,

2) Future provision of Entrance Gates.
Members discussed the provision of wrought iron entrance gates at a future date –
possibly in commemoration of the Queen’s Silver Jubilee next year.

Anyone like to guess their scrap value?
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Paul
Advanced Member

319 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  18:50:49  Show Profile
And they would be 35 years too late.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body.
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BFA
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
410 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  23:01:26  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by BRAM

BFA

So APC & WSCC sit on their backsides & do nothing because, as you say, the travellers do not bother 90% of Angmering residents - apart of course for the extra council tax required to deal with the consequences every time they invade.
Since the APC councillors who have been in post for several years have failed to deal with the problem I do not expect any new ideas from them this late in the day but perhaps newer members may have some better perspective or, here's an innovative thought, try asking security experts. APC have consulted with other experts on various matters so why not this?



I didn't say the travellers don't bother 90% of Angmering residents, I said 90% (a figure plucked out of the air but 'most' is a fact) of Angmering residents don't even know about them to BE bothered and out of the remaining ones that do know about them, a large percentage of those have never been personally affected by them, barring any of their council tax that goes to clearing up after them and attempts to keep them off the land of course.

I live in the Northern extremity of the village and if I didn't work in the village/had no connection to APC/wasn't a member of this forum/didn't read the Littlehampton gazette ... (tiny column dedicated to the issue anyway) the travellers would have come and gone without my knowledge.

It's all well and good pointing fingers and making suggestions from an armchair but the practicalities just don't work and the travellers know it, they're manipulating nationwide laws and getting away with criminal damage all over the country; no Parish Council has an answer to that and nor do you or I, especially an immediate one.

Anyway, you can rip all the holes in all that you want but it's the last fuel I'm adding to your fire.






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Crazypaving
Average Member

United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2011 :  06:50:49  Show Profile
I suspect a lot of the "real & true" villagers think Bramley Green is getting its cumeuppance. They didn't want the development in the first place and so if there are travellers nearby now and then, so what? As BFA says, 90% or so are not affected at all and many of them might even complain about APC finances being spent on securing the land anyway. let the travellers loose in Fletchers field or near Greenacres or some other Northern part of the village and am sure very swift action would be taken to ensure they don't get in again!
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Bert
Advanced Member

484 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2011 :  13:00:14  Show Profile
Crazypaving. I think that view about "Bramley Green getting its cumeuppance," is absurd.

I don't live on BG, but not very far away, and was certainly in the 90% of residents who would have been completely unaware of them without this website.

You cannot blame the people who have bought properties on BG in the manner you suggest, by getting their "comeuppance."

By all means if residents of the so called "real and true villagers" want to continue to object to the properties being built, have that objection aimed at the developers, previous landowners, Angmering Parish Council of the 1990's and the planning authorities at Arun District Council, of the 1990's. They are the ones who made the decisions, in the early/mid 90's.

Having planned and built the properties you cannot blame the people who bought them; that is absurd.

I'm sure the "real and true villagers" of Rustington were unhappy about the very substantial building over the last 20 years, between Worthing Road and the dual carriageway, known as the Parklands area, but clearly this Rustington and Angmering area was mapped out for development many years ago.

But to consider the people who bought these properties have got their "comeuppance," is a very strange and disrespectful way that "real and true villagers" may see the decisions which were made by the planners and developers, not the residents.
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2011 :  14:39:12  Show Profile
I am sick of the grudge postings regarding Bramley Green, probably made out of jealousy or some fantasy that the posters are the only indigenous natives entitled to benefit from the Angmering village idyll.
Without the extra revenue brought in by BG then APC would not be able to chase their fanciful ideas of building up their little empire - Full time parish office staff;Village Hall;Community Centre;ASRA pavillion;Parish Office;Skate park;planned tennis & boulle courts & the latest brainwave of purchasing the library to create a village hub.
Newsflash - Angmering is a comparatively small village & does not need these lavish & expensive projects particularly if, as is constantly spouted, that we wish to preserve the village ethos.The amenities bring in outsiders whose use is then subsidised by residents along with the accompanying inconvenience & damage.

My council tax together with every other resident of BG contributes to these scatterbrained ideas formulated by the minority,not the majority of Angmering residents. I, for one, object to my money being wasted particularly since I do not use any of the aforementioned amenities but unfortunately in our "democratic society" I have to watch while the money is wasted by APC
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Paul
Advanced Member

319 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2011 :  14:48:20  Show Profile
Crazypaving. I notice you do not provide any evidence to support your suspicions as I think you would find it hard to do do. Didn't APC take swift action by installing bunds to prevent access by Travellers, who got on this time because they were allowed access to WSCC land and then entered Mayflower Park from there? I'm not sure who you are having a go at, but I think you should do a bit more thinking.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body.
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compost
Advanced Member

265 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2011 :  17:46:06  Show Profile
Lets try to get back on track, the original postings were about the travellers and ways to stop them from entering Angmering, not just selected parts. Once again the topics disintergrate into who are true villagers and who are not. I live on the Bramley Green Estate but feel every bit a resident of Angmering. I use the local shops, pay towards the APC through the Council Tax or whatever that charge is called now. So I would back the village as a whole in finding a workable solution to the traveller issue wherever they try to park.
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Crazypaving
Average Member

United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  07:49:25  Show Profile
Paul, I am not having a go at anybody other than the supposed authorities. Our local PCSO said the other day that the Travellers have a right to go where they like as they are a minority society! The WSCC councillor did let them in to their land adjoining Mayflower Park but the APC opened the main gate at Mayflower Way and removed the concrete blocks to give them access in and out for the duration on the orders of the police who didn't want them coming out on to the A259 as it was dangerous. So? if there had been accidents or whatever the police would have been obliged to take more firm action. It was obviously ok for them to shoot down Mayflower Way at 60 mph and cause potential accidents on Roundstone Lane though. What about the physical and emotional trauma that residents on Mayflower Way had to endure while 4 travellers cut through the side fencing with bolt cutters and shouted abuse at them? That's ok is it? And where the police to protect those residents? An elderly couple in their 80s!
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Bert
Advanced Member

484 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  12:11:40  Show Profile
Crazypaving....

"I am not having a go at anybody other than the supposed authorities."


Oh yes you were....you clearly stated...."I suspect a lot of the 'real and true' villagers think Bramley Green is getting its comeuppance."

There is only one way to interpret that clear statement.
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Paul
Advanced Member

319 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  15:50:14  Show Profile
Bram - additional Parish Office staff were taken on to deal with the additional administrative work created by the building of Bramley Green. Like it or not, that was the justification. The Parish Office is no longer "one man in his spare bedroom". Along with extra revenue comes extra expenditure for facilites and maintenance.

The Village Hall is not part of the Parish Council "empire". Are you suggesting that the PC should stand by and watch ASRA and the Library just decay and become a blot on the landscape?

It is not only the residents of BG that contribute to the ideas of the PC, but all Angmering Council Tax payers, so please don't infer that it is only affecting BG residents.

Newsflash - Angmering is now a substantial village.

APC caters for all residents. Whether you like or use the facilities or not is your choice. As you don't appear to like this part of democracy, what would you prefer? Or perphaps you could stand for election and then speak of behalf of the electorate.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body.
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Paul
Advanced Member

319 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  15:52:33  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Crazypaving

The WSCC councillor did let them in to their land adjoining Mayflower Park but the APC opened the main gate at Mayflower Way and removed the concrete blocks to give them access in and out for the duration on the orders of the police who didn't want them coming out on to the A259 as it was dangerous.


Not sure how you can blame APC for following instructions from the Police on a matter of safety.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body.
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Nigel
Senior Member

United Kingdom
238 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  17:00:50  Show Profile
I, for one, would like to compliment the Parish Council for the speedy conclusion to the latest visit of travellers. Being a former councillor, I know how slow these things can get whilst the travellers play one authority against another.

Whilst I'm in the mood, I will admit that I am one of those that hate Bramley Green. Not the people, but the concept of building as many houses as you can on as small a plot as you can, leaving space called a garden in case anyone uses a rotary clothes line, assuming that everyone will park in their garage, and that all visitors will travel by public transport,so no additional parking is required, meaning you can have narrow roads.

Never judge what you don't understand.
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BFA
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
410 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  17:38:29  Show Profile
If you could go from 0-60 mph on Mayflower way in the average travellers type vehicle, you'd not have time to stop at the end!

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Paul
Advanced Member

319 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2011 :  21:43:36  Show Profile
BFA - you should know by now that some people never let facts get in the way of a good rant.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body.
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Karl@KCM
Senior Member

United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2011 :  08:56:59  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by BFA

If you could go from 0-60 mph on Mayflower way in the average travellers type vehicle, you'd not have time to stop at the end!





What if the travellers all owned Bugatti Veyrons?
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DEGOO
Average Member

United Kingdom
79 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2011 :  19:41:13  Show Profile
I have to say I'm a little offended. I am a 'real and true' villager (not my words) having been born and bread here with generations going back hundreds of years (inbred? maybe!!) I am also part of the 90% (at BFA's guess) that wouldn't have known about the travellers if it wasn't for these pages. Also, my family and myself were completely against the building of Bramley Green as we didn't want to see lovely open land covered in a tightly packed housing estate (I think Nigel put it just right!) However, I have absolutly nothing against the people who bought the houses, am certainly not jealous or in a fantasy that I am a true villager and that the people who live there have no rights to the village. I understand completely how angry the residents must have been, as i'm sure I would be if they appeared on my doorstep. But slinging insults our way helps nobody, so why don't you use your energy on trying to find a solution to the problem.
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2011 :  13:19:47  Show Profile
Degoo

"we didn't want to see lovely open land covered in a tightly packed housing estate "
In 1986 when I moved into the Angmering area the land currently occupied by BG was in fact a tatty assortment of greenhouses & sheds. I actually interviewed for a job in one of the nurseries operating from there. The planning application for BG development also refers to nurseries not open fields, which were as they are now i.e. Mayflower park,the Education field & the field where the mobile mast now sits.In hindsight I agree that it would have been better to demolish the greenhouses & leave the area as an open field.
The Dell had recently been built but there was very little in the way of activity by APC - apart from the erection of a wooden notice boards at the end of Downs Way. In fact until I received my first council tax bill I did not realise thet I was resident in Angmering.

Karl@KCM
If we didn't have to pay taxes we might all own expensive vehicles.

Paul
Can you cite other parishes that employ full time parish office staff?
From the WSCC website detailing parishes it would seem that the work is not so onerous since several individuls work as parish clerk in 2 parishes.In the case of Angmering the full time job seems to have been created.
As far as the library is concerned since WSCC & central government see no point in financing it why should that expense be placed on parishioners.ASRA I have never visited but does it contain a licensed bar & is it subsidised? Sports & Social Clubs should be self funding as should the Community Centre.
My point is that in the present economic climate where far more essential public services are threatened together with peoples livelihoods we cannot afford to squander our local taxes on vanity projects that yield no overall benefit to the majority.

With regard to the village hall does APC not administer & maintain it?
I do not recall saying that "only the residents of BG that contribute to the ideas of the PC, but all Angmering Council Tax payers, so please don't infer that it is only affecting BG residents" Most of the ideas probably originated from the APC members who live elsewhere in the parish.However the problems over travellers, building traffic etc have beeen specific to BG.
The reference to "90% of Angmering not aware of travellers" (& probably unconcerned) demonstrates that there is no cohesion or community within Angmering just a discordant group of housing estates built at different periods & that includes the area that you live in Nigel.
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BRAM
Advanced Member

373 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2011 :  14:05:59  Show Profile
Paul
Re. my point about the village hall I have just researched the accounts & note that although APC do make annual contributions the funding is separate from APC so apologies for error.
However" THE CHARITY IS ESTABLISHED FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE INTELLECTUAL, SOCIAL AND MORAL WELFARE OF THE INHABITANTS OF THE PARISH OF ANGMERING BY PROVIDING COMMUNAL FACILITIES AND PROMOTING COMMUNITY PROJECTS OF A CHARITABLE NATURE" & may therefore be deemed an asset of Anmering village particularly since it met the same purpose as the Community Centre now does.
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neil
Forum Owner / Moderator

United Kingdom
2623 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2011 :  14:08:02  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by BRAM

With regard to the village hall does APC not administer & maintain it?

The answer is No. Angmering Village Hall is an independent charity set up in 1928 to administer and maintain the Hall. APC are entitled to have a representative on the Hall's committee. I'm not sure when the APC rep first came on board - possibly when APC financed the building of the King Suite more than 20 years' ago. The trustees can be seen at;

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/ContactAndTrustees.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=271149&SubsidiaryNumber=0


As an aside, one interesting facet of the original deed was that "A Clergyman or a preacher or a Minister of any religious body or congregation shall not be eligible as a Trustee"!
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