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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2011 : 20:54:52
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| 3 caravans turned up at about 7pm this evening and bashed the wooden fence next to Angmering School on Rowan Way with a sledgehammer. 3 police cars turned up, passed the time of day with them, departed and then at least 4 more caravans arrived. They are all snug in the field no doubt by the time morning comes, there will be several more! Wonder what the council is going to do about this lot?! |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 21:11:14
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perhaps you could sledgehammer their property and see how they like it...  |
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BFA
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
410 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 23:09:04
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If you did that (and survived) you'd have more chance of getting sued than they have - the property they damaged was not personal property. What the council will do about it is go through the usual procedures, by which time the travellers will be ready to move on anyway. They know the law/red tape as well as the council does.
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Nigel
Senior Member
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 23:53:56
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| Surely, if the travellers have gained access to Parish Council land by going through West Sussex County Council land, any subsequent bill for damage and cleaning of APC property, should be met by WSCC. It was their lack of foresight and security that has allowed this to happen. |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 10:46:34
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grrrrr
flaming tax-dodging, trespassing, littering, property damaging (council or otherwise) criminals
people should be more pro-active to make it very clear to them from the moment of their arrival in a location that they are very much not welcome, and make life as difficult for them as possible...
i am sure there are perfectly legal ways to make unwelcome visitors want/need to leave if it turns out to be unpleasant enough for them...
they keep coming back to angmering because the various councils and local people are a soft touch and they know they can get away with whatever they choose to do 
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Nigel
Senior Member
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 12:19:34
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| Have just been to visit the travellers. They are on WSCC land. It would seem that the measures taken by the previous Parish Council may have prevented them from using their normal site. |
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 16:42:57
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The reason that they keep coming back is that people employ them. If nobody would use them to tarmac their drive, replace roof tiles, redo UPVC guttering etc they would get the message.
Have suffered before with them my understanding is that if they force their way onto property then they can be removed in 24 hours if notice is served within 24 hours of their arrival. |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 17:06:13
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yes, exactly, my lazy neighbours included, who hired some "pikey" types to chop their enormous hedge recently, which resulted in about 30 huge 2m-3m long massive branches (like big Xmas trees) landing in my back garden to be abandoned by the cheeky so-and-so's... only i caught them at it... could have killed one of my children had they been playing at that end of the garden at the time...
moral of the story, DON'T HIRE CHEAP UNQUALIFIED LABOUR TO DO YOUR DIRTY WORK |
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 21:20:04
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Unfortunately people will be tempted to employ people knocking on their door offering services at low cost.
Apart from terribly bad work often a quoted price of say £500 will be £5000 when the job is finished. When the customer won't pay the "travellers" turn up mob handed to demand the money which can be extremely scarey.
Only use reputable local busineses. |
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 09:25:50
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| The travellers were issued with court order by WSCC on Thursday and should have vacated the land by 6pm yesterday evening. Surprise, surprise, they are still there this morning. The police were around school finishing time to ensure the kids were ok and then they b***ered off. So really useful having a 24hr court order which is totally ignored. The travellers will be there til Tuesday now and presumably will be back for the August bank holiday! I suspect if an official from WSCC or our local police had them on their doorstep more prompt action & enforcement would have been taken! |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 13:54:51
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Travellers follow funfairs/carnivals etc particularly over Bank holidays & as long as local authorities permit these events then this type of problem will continue & council taxpayers will be lumbered with legal & clean up costs.
Looking to Sussex police to take action on anything other than soft targets is futile.They can't even be bothered to attend APC meetings.
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Guiseppe
Average Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 15:21:53
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Suggestion :
Why not send an e mail to Mr. Nick Herbert who happens to be both minister for the police and our local MP highlighting your annoyance with the Sussex Police for failing to to take any effectice action on this problem.
E Mail address is : nick@nickherbert.com |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 21:22:27
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grumpygirl, there is more than one sussex police officer or local council officer living on bramley green, that doesn't mean they are any more able to get rid of these people, it isn't actually any more their legal responsibility nor obligation as a resident than any other issue, it would not be either personally or professionally appropriate for them to get involved...
nobody posted up on here when the funfair camped overnight on the a259 overnight last week below mayflower park, presumably because they left next morning, but the fact that they chose to stop there suggests that the word is out that angmering is an easy place to stop... it makes me wonder if there might be residents of angmering with connections to the travelling community who have been spreading the word?
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Nigel
Senior Member
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 00:21:16
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I would just like to point out that the funfare people are not 'travellers','pikeys','gipos' or any other name you give them, they are Showmen. Check your driving licence groups, they even have their own group. They have stopped overnight on the A259 for as many years as I can remember and never been a problem to anyone and their funfares have always been welcome to most people.
Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. |
Edited by - Nigel on 29 May 2011 00:25:26 |
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 10:04:33
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| Apparently the travellers are being allowed to stay until tomorrow evening or at worst before school on Tuesday. The police said that after consultations with various parties they were worried the travellers might up sticks and try and gain access to Mayflower Park if they were evicted from the WSCC land and also they didn't want them trying to gain access somewhere else in the vicinity and it was better for them to stay put. They could not get into the park because the APC dumped tons of earth etc at the only point of entry available to the travellers and this was in place when the 24hr eviction order expired on Friday and they had not moved, so that is obviously a load of rubbish, sorry hardcore! Once the notice had expired and no action was taken, 3 more caravans turned up and the eviction notice was destroyed. A point of interest is that the police are obviously happy for them to intimidate & abuse our school kids and residents instead of inflicting them on other parts of West Sussex and they are supposedly not causing damage. So taking a sledgehammer to wooden fence posts is ok then. Interesting to see how quickly WSCC will clear up their mess after departure and whether they will make the fencing traveller proof. Well done to the APC for making sure travellers cannot access Mayflower Park anyway. |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 10:06:09
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GrumpyGirl. Are you sure the police have responsibility for enforcing a County Court Order for Civil Tresspass? Is this not the responsibility of the County Court Bailiffs and Enforcement Officers?
Do the poice not attend in such matters, to attempt to prevent a breach of the peace and civil disorder, while the County Court Bailiffs are attempting to enforce the Order?
Civil trespass is a difficult matter to deal with, as are most civil disputes, and the travellers are very well aware of their "rights and responsibilities" whether we agree with them or not. |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 10:39:57
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| Perhaps rather than wasting any more money or effort WSCC & APC could have Mayflower Park designated as an official traveller site & then apply for whatever grants are available. |
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Nigel
Senior Member
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 11:20:32
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Just a thought, I've only lived in Angmering for 20+ years, so maybe someone can answer this.
Did Angmering suffer from this traveller problem before someone built a housing estate to the south of the village? |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 12:11:01
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It's good to see that Nigel now participates so freely in debate since his release from the enforced vow of silence during his period on APC.
I too moved to Downs Way,Angmering some years ago (in 1986 to be exact) long before Bramley Green, & just shortly after The Dell construction.I can recall a number of occasions each year when traveller caravans broke into & parked up in the fields adjoining the A259 so it is certainly not a new occurrence & the way in which the problem is dealt with doesn't seem to have improved any either.
Is Nigel implying that new estates attract travellers since I would have thought that they prefer open land?
He asserts that travellers are not the authentic showmen that have illegally parked along the verges of the A259 for years without being moved on. Their frequent appearance during/around Bank holidays & funfairs is just a coincidence then.
I would disagree with him on whether "they have not been a problem to anyone" as I lived in very close proximity to where their rides & heavy vehicles parked. As to whether "their funfares have always been welcome to most people" that too is questionable with regard to safety, hygiene & overcharging.They bring no revenue into the area & if anything probably cost local business. Why seaside resorts need to accomodate travelling funfares baffles me.
Guiseppe - your suggestion to contact Nick Herbert(or more likely one of his PAs) whilst logical would,in my previous experience with him/them on other matters, prove just as ineffective. |
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Nigel
Senior Member
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 13:26:22
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Showmen do bring revenue. Circus & Funfair operators are invited by various parties to pitch their shows. They do not set up on any vacant land at will. They are licensed by the local authority,and safety checked by the same. As for overcharging, try visiting Thorpe Park etc. OK, the rides are bigger but take into account your travelling costs, and I think Funfairs etc. are pretty good value.
This is now wandering of topic,sorry but I just wanted to differentiate between 'travellers' and 'Showmen'
Lets get you going a bit more.
Was Bramley Green formally known as Angmering? |
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 14:34:29
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Having lived in the area for twenty years I believe the traveller situation is less of a problem than it has been in the past.
Whether you a a fan of travelling fairs or not a lot of people love them and they provide employment for many people.
When they park up along the A259 they are not doing so illegally. They have applied in advance through the proper channels and have authorisation to do so. |
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Paul
Advanced Member
319 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 18:22:13
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"Was Bramley Green formally known as Angmering?"
If you live there or are an Estate Agent, apparently so.  |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 21:49:20
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nigel, however pc you may wish to be (ie. policitcally correct, not parish council of course) i do not believe that travelling showmen, however legitimate responsible and shiny happy lovely folk they may be, have any more right than anyone else to camp for free on a roadside verge, especially in a busy built up area right next to a road crossing used predominantly by school children. it is an irresponsible place to stop, and they should make arrangements in advance to have somewhere legitimate to stay... at least they didn't do any damage, but i don't see why they should be able to just camp anywhere they want, and just because they've been doing it for years doesn't make it ok...
also, what revenue do they bring to an area please? funfairs, for just 1 quick example, create a large increase in litter from funfair visitors, which surely ends up a cost to the local community/councils, not revenue at all...
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Nigel
Senior Member
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 22:45:15
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Sorry 240felicia, but I must correct you on one or two points. Circuses and funfairs pay the landowner or organisation to pitch their show, either an agreed sum or a percentage. They eat food bought locally, their machinery & transport runs on fuel bought from garages and if you had visited the Palmer Road recreation ground, either this year or last, the circus people left it spotless when they left.
As for making arrangements in advance to have somewhere legitimate to stay, I refer you to Angmering Paul's previous post.I believe they are granted permission by WSCC Highways Dept' |
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 17:14:25
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| Whatever! It will be very nice for the nearest residents not to have to put up with the incessant and unbearable noise of several generators going full-throttle (5 days worth and counting!), dogs barking and travellers shouting at each other and anyone who ventures within 50 yards of them. Hopefully they will be out pre-school tomorrow. Suppose that depends on whether our local constabulary & the WSCC can be bothered to turn up and enforce the eviction order, of course. |
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Paul
Advanced Member
319 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 21:21:52
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| Is pre-school time tomorrow of any relevance as it is half-term at the Angmering School? |
Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body. |
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 19:23:33
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Obviously not as apparently the WSCC have agreed to extend the travellers' holiday here until Thursday by which time undoubtedly they will have to issue another court order which will take as long as WSCC want it to take before eviction which prsumably means they will still be here over this weekend too. Meanwhile the poor residents close by are being subjected to incessant noise (music blaring at 1 million decibles), generators and having plants & flowers stolen from very pretty front gardens. The police as usual are conspicuous by their absence and have an obvious total disregard for residents' well being & peace of mind.
Isn't it always either half term or end of term here? |
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Paul
Advanced Member
319 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 20:59:35
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Isn't it curious that the "officials" who can do something are not elected (nor apparently responsible to the electorate).
I can assure GG that it is not "always either half term or end of term here". :-) |
Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
The views expressed in this posting are those of the author and must not be taken as representing any commercial, religious, political or other body. |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 09:19:48
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if you new neighbours are causing a noise disturbance, you should call environmental health
if they are really stealing flowers and plants, you should report any thefts to the police
nigel, your reasons for saying that travelling showmen contribute to the local economy are tenuous, they don't neccesarily shop in the area, nor refuel, they can do that anywhere... and any money made by landowners is surely outweighed by the fact that they can make use of the local facilities and services for free during their time in the area, as they do not pay the local taxes, that means in effect the council tax payers in each area they visit are subsidising them.
ok so they're not the same as the muppets at the bottom of bramley green right now, but i do not agree with your reasoning nonetheless.
grumpygirl, why don't you pop over for a chat and give the fencebashing, genrator-rumbling flower pinchers directions to manor nursery or haskins if they like flowers so much... and don't complain too much about the generators, after all the fuel they use must be contributing to the local economy.....  |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 09:45:26
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GrumpyGirl / Paul.
The "officials" from WSCC who have apparently deemed it appropriate for these travellers to remain longer than initially agreed are indeed not elected.
However, you have a County Councillor who represents you on WSCC, and if I lived near this site and I am sure I would feel very upset about this as you do, I would be making representation to her in the strongest terms as to why this decision was made, and what action is to be taken to prevent a similar situation on this land in the future.
She is there to represent residents and is obliged to look into this matter on your behalf. |
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 14:18:50
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Bert, You can be assured we have been in contact with Deborah Urquart at WSCC & the police. The police response (to me today) was that the travellers "had to live somewhere". The WSCC prefer to know where they are and let them remain to terrorise the local neighbourhood, children at play etc. On asked what they would de after the Travellers have vacated the site, the response was "put a new padlock on the gate". This is the contempt in which WSCC holds its electorate. What they are really saying is that it is no big deal and we will have to put up with it on every bank holiday.
240felicia. You might think this is all very funny but it certainly isn't for the poor residents who are having to put up with it all. Why don't you go down there and confront them. Maybe you are quite happy for them to steal your plants, garden ornaments, edging etc and having to avoid cars/vans driving on the wrong side of the road and coming at you at some speed. |
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hairspray
Senior Member
United Kingdom
104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 14:42:20
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There is a police car parked across the entrance to the Community Centre.I spoke to a a policeman I saw near the green there today as he pushed and prodded the wood stakes around the green.I said if kids can move them then no probs for strapping Gypsy Men.I also told him if they ended up there it would be me they would be arresting for haressment rather than the travellers...would give them the same abuse they would dish out!!!
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 14:57:12
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I still remember the nightmare of the summer 1997. Groups of travellers congregated around the roundabout at the Roundstone. there must have been over 100 vehicles. All summer long they were there. What is now Costcutter had to employ a private security firm to man the door vetting who was coming in. There were nightly fist fights outside and around the pub. Sometimes it was even the men fighting!
All the childrens bikes and toys went from the gardens and adults stayed home from work to guard their property.
It seems that little or nothing has been learnt from that experience. |
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 15:35:30
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grumpygirl, i don't find it funny and think you're a bit daft for thinking that i was in some way mocking,... i certainly wouldn't like it if it was on my doorstep, which was why i suggested calling environmetal health and reporting thefts accordingly... environmetal health have been very helpful to me with noise problems from a non-traveller neighbour in the past... they turned up within an hour on a sunday even!
a few years back i lived somewhere where very nearby there was a huge an encampment of over 30 traveller families in a layby, they just wouldn't go, nobody could keep anything in their gardens or driveways and there was a huge increase in thefts and regular drug raids too... in the end it took a massive surprise sunday evening raid with over 100 police officers to forcibly move them all on en masse... when they'd gone, lots of the stolen things were left behind in the place they'd pretty much destroyed... cookers, bicycles, garden toys, you name it, all ruined...
so don't think i don't sympathise, i have been there...
thing is, you won't get anything much done by just grumbling about it on a local discussion forum...  |
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GrumpyGirl
Average Member
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 17:14:50
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| 240felicia, I would like to see you get something done. We have done everything possible but as you know WSCC is the law around here. The police have no powers nor the inclination to do anything. And... I thought the whole point of a forum is so grievances can be aired. Isn't that what they are for? |
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hairspray
Senior Member
United Kingdom
104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 17:31:32
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It is certainly fine to vent off on here as it saves you getting angry at anyone in the flesh!The only advice I could have given to getting rid of them would have been illegal ...I say bring back a bit of 1970's policing which would have involved a lot more direct action than the PC way that operates now, Not popular I know but everybody is to bloody soft these days .
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240felicia
Senior Member
172 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 21:49:08
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hmmm, not legal but if they were outside my front door my other half would have made their lives hell by now.... so rather glad there's no chance of that really.... have you tried approaching the local rag and tell them about it, see if they'll shame the council & police in print for their lame excuses for not moving them on when they could have done...
is anyone even being charged for the damage to the property?
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 12:17:49
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240felicia- Wouldn't it be great to openly shame indolent public servants but unfortunately they have no shame as we constantly see from media reports - they just continue taking exorbitant salaries etc.
Why was taxpayer money used to obtain an emergency court order to remove the travellers over a week ago but never executed & why isn't the head of Angmering school, who has a duty of care to pupils & staff(not to mention a responsibility to neighbouring residents & the Angmering community as a whole),actively pushing to have them removed & remedial security work carried out before school resumes next week?
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 12:28:57
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| I think Bram that the police, the travellers and anyone else with experience of previous situations (probably even the School's HM) all know that they will go when THEY want to go and not before (court order or not). |
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Bert
Advanced Member
484 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 14:52:18
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I would imagine one of the major problems, is that these travellers have a long list of sites / land, upon which they know they can gain access, many being located in West Sussex, and some of which are on WSCC land.
The travellers therefore remain a problem for much of the time for WSCC, only the location changes. It is probably a never ending problem, until they go over the border into a neighbouring county, and the proces continues there.
I expect the same County Court Bailiffs see the same travellers quite frequently. Rather than having regular incidents of major civil disorder between the travellers and the enforcement officers and police, I suspect WSCC and Bailiffs agree to let them stay longer than a day or two on the basis that they will move on after a week, and go and annoy the residents in the next town or village.
All the time we have travellers, I would imagine each county will have these problems, and it's our turn this week.
Travellers have been a major headache for Local Authorities for as long as I can remember, and unfortunately it will probably continue, until a generation want to settle down and then the Local Authority will have to find somewhere for them to remain long term, which is another major problem.
A problem without a simple solution, otherwise it would have been resolved many years ago, but that does not help the residents who are adversely affected near each site. |
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BRAM
Advanced Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 15:02:46
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Bert - I agree but the failure to deal effectively with this ongoing problem demonstrates just how bad our lawmakers are in doing their jobs.
By the way having just walked back from the village via William Older Way,Rowan Way,Foxwood Close I saw 3 police vehicles & 4 officers parked up apparently waiting for something.Is this an honour guard for departing travellers or preparation for a further influx? |
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