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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  15:11:50  Show Profile
Can a drop kerb be granted to an ablebodied resident in a cul de sac without informing all the other residents who will now lose a parking space?


www.euphrosenelabon.com

angmeringpaul
Senior Member

United Kingdom
234 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  15:27:26  Show Profile
I believe you need planning permission for a drop kerb.
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  15:30:13  Show Profile
It seems she did get the highways bloke round but as the removal of a very much needed parking space now affects all the rest of us, I'm surprised that none of us were informed at all.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  15:32:23  Show Profile
I gather she said it would mean her car would no longer be on the road therefore freeing up a space - when simple legal logic should have told the highways man that anyone parking in the 'freed' space would now be creating an obstruction to her drive.

Am still shocked that this total change to the cul de sac can be carried out without informing all the residents first.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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240felicia
Senior Member

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  21:01:18  Show Profile
you may find this link useful for reference
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/WhereYouLive/StreetsParkingCleaningAndLighting/DG_10026223

if in doubt, ask at the local council if the person has got permission

but like others said, a dropped kerb means at least one less car parked on the road...
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  22:30:38  Show Profile
Creating access to the hardstanding would mean removing the car parking space as well, so it saves nothing and potentially leaves a space that cannot be used. Although I have now read other residents can park there are stop access IN but not block access OUT.

All very disharmonious and unnecessary.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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patty
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
738 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  23:06:55  Show Profile
Can I play devil's advocate here please?

if the person concerned used to park their car in the space where the dropped kerb now is, but now parks it on their drive, you still have exactly the same position, and have technically neither lost nor gained a parking space.

Also can I ask, is the drive long enough to take more than one car, so, if this person has visitors, will they be able to park on the drive as well, so not taking another valuable space in your cul de sac?
If this is the case, technically, you have gained from it.

This of course is nothing to do with permissions, etc to do it, but just wondered if perhaps in the longer term, it may be to your advantage?

any comments and views listed above are those of myself personally and not as a Parish Councillor, and in no way reflect opinions of the Parish Council or any other professional bodies
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  23:51:28  Show Profile
It's always been you park where there's a free space. Everyone just parks where there's a free space and have done so for the last 20-odd years.

And I don't get why people say if they now park on the newly-created drive there will be a free space. Where? Blocking that newly-created drive?

The beef was because there are so few free spaces in the evenings that this resident sometimes had to park at the top of the road. As indeed have I and everyone else when we get home later.

However, their brilliant new plan is to keep that space permanently free for them to drive on to their hardstanding and let the rest of us park down the road.

If you all think that's fair, then I seem to have missed something.


www.euphrosenelabon.com
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  23:52:57  Show Profile
BTW, the hardstanding might just take their car and nothing else.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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Karl@KCM
Senior Member

United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2011 :  09:31:07  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by patty

Can I play devil's advocate here please?

Also can I ask, is the drive long enough to take more than one car, so, if this person has visitors, will they be able to park on the drive as well, so not taking another valuable space in your cul de sac?
If this is the case, technically, you have gained from it.




Surely if the drive wasnt there this wouldnt have made a difference anyway as it would have been the same?
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jammer
Senior Member

172 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2011 :  09:53:54  Show Profile
Agree with Euphrosene, its unfair to be able to Guarantee yourself a parking space at the expense of others. It takes an existing parking space available to all at alla times of the day and allocates it permanently to the owner of the dropped curb for their convenience whenever they happen to be at home. At the least this should be subject to consent?

..//.//..//..//..
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Commuter
Senior Member

United Kingdom
166 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2011 :  10:06:57  Show Profile
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080829114344AA0Rehr

Commuter
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Val
Average Member

United Kingdom
35 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  01:32:39  Show Profile
Facts which have not been told here:
Everyone in the Close has a garage - in compounds behind the houses - but they choose not to use them.
Many families now have two cars - including the people who have paid West Sussex (I understand) 1,000 to have the dropped kerb created. The idea is to put one of their cars on a hard stand and park the other one in the space created by the dropped kerb (where nine cases out of ten they parked anyhow.They will therefore in fact be freeing up one parking space in the Close.
A lot of people who do not actually live in the Close come and park there.
Others - Euphrosene being one - come and park up on the pavement against my garden rather than walk any distance. I have had difficulty getting out of the drive at times because of cars blocking it.
Nothing has been said about another person in the Close who has the luxury of a garage attached to her house with a drive in front but parks her car on the road in front of the house usually taking up two parking spaces.I'm told she doesn't like people parking in front of her house.

I'm sure it will all settle down and not be very different to before.
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  09:11:15  Show Profile
Val, you do not choose to use your garage either, for the very same reasons as the rest of us - they are used as additional storage, hence the difficulty in using them.

When I first moved here, I did try to use it but kept scraping the car doors. It was almost impossible to get out and I'm quite slim. My current car while not large would also make it difficult to open the doors, so that particular argument doesn't wash.

As for parking on the pavement beside your garden, I have only parked there when I've been unloading shopping or bags or have come back very late at night. I cannot speak for others.

However, you have also made a point in my favour, since people have only parked there when all the spaces in the close have been taken up.

I do not see why residents of this close should park in neighbouring roads just so one person can have a permanent parking space to the detriment of most of all the others.

So does this free up a space?

No it doesn't as we all have had to park on a first come first park basis. Now, if the dropped kerb people are not in, or are away, it technically leaves a vacant space - something that has never been done before.

Secondly, there is still a small tree right in the middle of their 'hardstanding' (or was this morning) so where precisely is it freeing up a space?

They can't park on the relatively small pavement as it's a communal path. And if both their cars are parked one behind the other, it would block part of the turning area.

But most of all, by creating a dropped kerb, there is now a possibly permanent right to park there which the rest of us will no longer have.

The communal path has also now gone to be part of the other resident's hardstanding (which, to repeat, they cannot use as of today because there is a tree in the middle). So all they have done (to date) is pay WSH �1000 or whatever for the right to permanently park there.

Now if that is the case, the council should have informed the rest of the residents first, as this changes the communal parking arrangements enjoyed by everyone, including those in parts of the nearby twittens, for the last 20 or more years.

So no it will NOT be same ('not be very different to before').

And yes, there is the issue of the Volvo which I presume created this disharmony in the first place. But as they continue to ignore the wellbeing of everyone else, I'm not sure what can be done about that. Taking the communal rights of everyone, legally they too have the right to use that road, however inconsiderate and selfish that might be.

My OP was about changing the rights enjoyed by everyone to park freely in the close now being altered by the highways department - for the benefit of one resident - without informing any of us first.


www.euphrosenelabon.com

Edited by - Euphrosene on 13 Jul 2011 09:21:06
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  09:17:37  Show Profile
Re "... (where nine cases out of ten they parked anyhow..."

That too is not true. Indeed, if that was the case, occasionally parking elsewhere shouldn't have made them want to pay for permament rights to park there.

And to repeat, by granting them permanent rights, they have removed that right from the rest of us without the courtesy of informing any of us first.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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Val
Average Member

United Kingdom
35 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  10:40:50  Show Profile
I am trying to be a bit more objective. I do not need to park in my garage because part of my front garden is a hard stand for a car - the reason I bought this particular house. So I do not take up a parking space in the road. I run onto the hard stand from the garage drive - which I suggested they could also do instead of dropping the kerb.
You have posted on here without knowing all the facts and perhaps, therefore, misleading people.
The tree you speak of - a small ornate tree - is going to be moved in order to create the hard stand which - as you say- has not been done yet.The person concerned is on holiday at the moment.I did caution her that this would cause bad feeling.
They will technically have reserved themselves a parking space but will not be allowed to park across the pavement - only to run up over it using the dropped kerb - this is what they pay for. The pavement should at all times be available for people with pushchairs etc - particularly as mothers come through this way with their children from the school. People do not consider this right of way when they park on the pavement by my garden which is also part of the walkway.
I understand the frustrations surrounding parking.
Perhaps your campaign letter you sent out to everyone in the Close should have taken up the issue of the Volvo - perhaps appealing to their community spirit - because yes, this did create the disharmony in the first place.A lot of people could be more community minded and put others before themselves.I thought we did this quite well in the Close - looking after some of our older residents in particular. In fact I have to say that the Volvo owner is one of the best in this respect!
This is my final word - but perhaps we can talk when we next see one another!
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  11:10:26  Show Profile
"You have posted on here without knowing all the facts and perhaps, therefore, misleading people."

My original post - and continuing desire to know - was and is whether a space which has previously been available for all is now no longer available for all - and without the courtesy of a letter from either the council or the resident.

How is that conceivably misleading people?

"They will technically have reserved themselves a parking space..."

Is this allowed without informing the residents who will be negatively affected by it? Incidentally, and again, the point of my original post.

"Perhaps your campaign letter you sent out to everyone in the Close should have taken up the issue of the Volvo"

It did.

" - perhaps appealing to their community spirit"

It did. You may need to re-read it.

Re talking, it was you who I rang in the first place - prior to getting in touch with the highways dept

:^D


www.euphrosenelabon.com
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roosterbri
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
553 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  11:31:59  Show Profile
Rolling pins at dawn!!!!!
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  11:39:18  Show Profile
"Rolling pins at dawn!!!!!"

:^D

Will you be my second?

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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DEGOO
Average Member

United Kingdom
79 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  12:01:57  Show Profile
I don't think permission needs to be sort from neighbours in this situation, however if parking is as limited as has been suggested in the posts then who can blame a person from wanting to park on their property?? It ensures parking near their house, off road so less car insurance to pay and will leave more space on the road for easier access for other cars as well as emergency vehicles. Obviously I don't know which road is being talked about here (I might have to go looking though!) but I think any objections are quite petty. Sorry, just my opinion!
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  12:13:03  Show Profile
To repeat, it does *not* free a space. God knows how that logic has been worked out. The so-called 'free space' would then become a vacant access space therefore saving absolutely nothing apart from being convenient to one person to the detriment of many others.

It does not create more room or easier access for emergency vehicles. All it is doing is stopping others from parking there - and to repeat, this is a cul de sac where everyone could park freely.

As mentioned elsewhere, it might be understandable that someone want to permanently keep a space free for themselves. It is not, however, either considerate or in the interests of good neighbourliness.

As for pettiness, if the council sees fit to change an existing situation without informing all affected, I hardly think it is 'petty'.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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DEGOO
Average Member

United Kingdom
79 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  13:31:18  Show Profile
I didn't mean it gives a 'free space' as in a parking space, I meant that it is one less car on the road, which surely can't be a bad thing? but you obviously very strongly feel otherwise. All i'm saying is I can completely see why a person would want to park on their property rather than the road regardless of being neighbourly, I know I would! Sorry but I can't see how anyone can have a problem with that and obviously the council agrees.
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Karl@KCM
Senior Member

United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  15:51:05  Show Profile
How many of people in said cul-de-sac have more than one car?
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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  17:08:41  Show Profile
A woman from the highways dept has just called me - and it seems that current laws do allow for such a radical change without informing others, as we are in a declassified road.

However, she did say that the laws had been made before there were so many car owners and that, currently, there are no clauses re social harmony or disharmony caused by such changes.

So I will have to live with it.

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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Commuter
Senior Member

United Kingdom
166 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  18:57:23  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Euphrosene

A woman from the highways dept has just called me - and it seems that current laws do allow for such a radical change without informing others, as we are in a declassified road.

However, she did say that the laws had been made before there were so many car owners and that, currently, there are no clauses re social harmony or disharmony caused by such changes.

So I will have to live with it.



Sadly, this issue for estates such as BG will grow and grow. How many families on there with two cars will end up with 4 or 5 once children are old enough to drive? No solution in sight other than to try to move somewhere with more parking - usually older estates where the houses are smaller but the drives bigger - catch 22?

Commuter
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member

United Kingdom
234 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  22:37:54  Show Profile
I am with you Euphrosene I think drop kerbs are a menace that wipes out at least one parking space. There is a new one in Arundel Road in front of the recently sold church building by the Catholic school.
Along with the dangerous and counter productive zig-zags I can't invisage how permission is given for these things.
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member

United Kingdom
234 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  22:42:31  Show Profile
The posting by Commuter with the link to yahoo "answers" seemed to be suggesting that the Highway Code is in someway a suggestion and not the law is incorrect.
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Commuter
Senior Member

United Kingdom
166 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  22:49:21  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by angmeringpaul

The posting by Commuter with the link to yahoo "answers" seemed to be suggesting that the Highway Code is in someway a suggestion and not the law is incorrect.



Some of it is law, some isn't:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070236

Commuter
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member

United Kingdom
234 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2011 :  23:14:56  Show Profile
Thanks for that Commuter to me "must not" and "should not" are pretty much the same but maybe I am just too law abiding!
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DEGOO
Average Member

United Kingdom
79 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2011 :  14:18:25  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Euphrosene

To repeat, it does *not* free a space. God knows how that logic has been worked out. The so-called 'free space' would then become a vacant access space therefore saving absolutely nothing apart from being convenient to one person to the detriment of many others.

It does not create more room or easier access for emergency vehicles. All it is doing is stopping others from parking there - and to repeat, this is a cul de sac where everyone could park freely.

As mentioned elsewhere, it might be understandable that someone want to permanently keep a space free for themselves. It is not, however, either considerate or in the interests of good neighbourliness.

As for pettiness, if the council sees fit to change an existing situation without informing all affected, I hardly think it is 'petty'.



So let me get this right.

One of your neighbours bought a property with hard standing in the front garden, but had no access to it so parked on the road.
Said neighbour has now applied to have a drop kerb fitted so they can park their car on said hardstanding off of the road.

At which point does this create a problem??? The drop kerb will be approximately one car in length, so you havent gained a space, yet you have not lost a space, but you have lost another car to drive around on the road.

If you are so worried about the parking situation in your 'cul de sac' why dont you do the same??? Have a hard standing made, get a drop kerb fitted and get your car off the road?!?!?!

Sometimes it just seems some people have too much time on their hands to find issues with what other people do to their own property which they have paid for with their own money!
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roosterbri
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
553 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2011 :  15:57:59  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Euphrosene

"Rolling pins at dawn!!!!!"

:^D

Will you be my second?



Of course I will
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angmeringpaul
Senior Member

United Kingdom
234 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2011 :  23:15:10  Show Profile
Hello Commuter. Having looked back at the wording issue what happens if the Highway code doesn't use either of those terms (should not/must not) is it a guideline or the law?
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Stirrer
Junior Member

17 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  22:07:41  Show Profile
Where is this cul de sac!!

If the person who had the drop kerb installed is no longer parking on the road, you've lost nothing!!! All you have done is taken a car off the road and replaced it with a drop kerb

Chill out!
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Stirrer
Junior Member

17 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  22:12:31  Show Profile
"As for parking on the pavement beside your garden, I have only parked there when I've been unloading shopping or bags or have come back very late at night. I cannot speak for others."

So Euphrosene you are happy to do what you want when it suits you?

And what's the Volve owner done 'Perhaps your campaign letter you sent out to everyone in the Close should have taken up the issue of the Volvo - perhaps appealing to their community spirit - because yes, this did create the disharmony in the first place.A lot of people could be more community minded and put others before themselves.I thought we did this quite well in the Close - looking after some of our older residents in particular. In fact I have to say that the Volvo owner is one of the best in this respect!'



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Euphrosene
Average Member

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2011 :  12:15:54  Show Profile
Thank you all for your valuable and/or interesting comments. All the best, Euphrosene

www.euphrosenelabon.com
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